Narco News publishes the full text
of the February 27, 2002 depostion by Assistant Secretary of
State for International Narcotics & Law Enforcement Affairs
Rand Beers in the federal lawsuit by Ecuador's Farmers vs. DynCorp
For background info see:
(Due to the length of this document
it is broken into three parts: Pages 1-29, pages 30-59, pages 60-88)
Part II
30
1 we're objecting on the basis of classified State
2 security, national security privilege.
3 MR. HOLLINGSWORTH: The same objection
on
4 behalf of DynCorp. The basis for that is national
5 security, foreign policy and the contract itself.
6 BY MR. COLLINGSWORTH:
7 Q. Were the discussions concluded?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Is there a buffer zone?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. The part you're objecting to is
12 telling me how wide it is?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Because that's a national security
15 secret?
16 A. Because we don't wish to preview
17 where people would have sanctuary. We don't
wish
18 to preview where we might fly.
19 Q. Do you have any knowledge at all
of
20 similar discussions involving the government
of
21 Ecuador?
22 A. As I earlier said, no.
31
1 Q. What is the reason that there
is a
2 buffer zone, however wide it is?
3 MR. RIVERA: Let me again just object
on
4 the grounds to the extent that the witness would
5 have to reveal in his answer any information
that
6 would be protected by State secrets or national
7 security or other privilege.
8 With that objection, you may answer
to
9 the extent that you don't reveal such information.
10 THE WITNESS: As a concept, it is to
try
11 to ensure that the areas to which a spray is
12 delivered are, in fact, most likely to hit targets
13 and most likely not to hit places that are not
14 targets.
15 BY MR. COLLINGSWORTH:
16 Q. Would it be fair to say, then,
that
17 one purpose of the buffer zone is to insure that
18 the spraying does not enter into Ecuador?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Because Ecuador is not a target
21 of --
22 A. That is correct?
32
1 Q. -- the spraying?
2 MR. RIVERA: Make sure he finishes
his
3 question before you answer.
4 THE WITNESS: The answer to the question
5 as completed is yes.
6 MR. COLLINGSWORTH: Thank you.
7 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Counsel.
8 BY MR. COLLINGSWORTH:
9 Q. Are you aware of any reports that
10 spraying has occurred in Ecuador?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Describe for me your knowledge
along
13 those lines.
14 MR. RIVERA: I'm going to raise the
same
15 objection with respect to the witness may answer
16 subject to preservation of any national security
or
17 classified information.
18 THE WITNESS: I have heard press reports.
19 BY MR. COLLINGSWORTH:
20 Q. Press reports of spraying in
21 Ecuador?
22 A. Or drift of spray into Ecuador.
33
1 Q. Have you ordered any kind of
2 investigation of that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Who is conducting that
5 investigation?
6 A. The embassy.
7 Q. The embassy in?
8 A. Bogota.
9 Q. The U.S. Embassy in Bogota?
10 A. That's correct.
11 Q. Is there any conclusion to those
12 investigations?
13 MR. RIVERA: I'm going to raise the
same
14 objection I did previously.
15 THE WITNESS: The conclusions that
I
16 understand are that the information does not
stand
17 up to the allegations. The press reports do
not
18 stand up discretely.
19 BY MR. COLLINGSWORTH:
20 Q. Is there a written report to that
21 effect?
22 A. No, not to my knowledge.
34
1 Q. How did you come to learn that
2 information?
3 A. It would have been communicated
to
4 me by staff, from telephone conversations with
5 people in the embassy.
6 Q. Do you know who communicated that
to
7 you?
8 A. I would have to ask Mr. Etheridge.
9 Q. I would like to direct your
10 attention to paragraph 9 of your Declaration.
11 A. (Witness complies.)
12 Q. The relevant portion is in the
13 second line of paragraph 9. "It should
be noted
14 that the punitive class is drawn from a region
15 adjacent to one largely controlled by drug
16 traffickers and international terrorists."
17 What is the region that you are
18 referring to there?
19 A. The region within Ecuador or the
20 region within Columbia?
21 Q. The region within Ecuador.
22 A. To the best of my knowledge, it
35
1 would have involved Sucumbios and Carchi
2 departments, or provinces if that's what they're
3 called, in Columbia.
4 Q. What are you referring to in
5 Columbia?
6 A. I'm referring to the cultivation
and
7 the trafficking and insurgent organizations which
8 are no different from trafficking organizations
9 that exist in the Putumayo region department
and
10 the overlap of that department into Narino in
11 Southern Columbia.
12 Q. Are there any specific terrorist
13 targets in Sucumbios, Ecuador?
14 MR. RIVERA: I object to the question
15 again to the extent that it would call for
16 revealing information protected by State secrets,
17 privileged or other national security privileges.
18 THE WITNESS: I don't know what a target
19 is.
20 BY MR. COLLINGSWORTH:
21 Q. Are there any terrorist groups
that
22 are on the U.S. government's list that are known
to
36
1 be hiding or based in Sucumbios, Ecuador?
2 MR. RIVERA: Same objection.
3 THE WITNESS: There is general
4 information that the BART from time to time has
5 some of its elements within Ecuador.
6 BY MR. COLLINGSWORTH:
7 Q. Within Sucumbios, Ecuador?
8 A. Within Sucumbios.
9 Q. I don't speak Spanish. I'll do
my
10 best.
11 A. Nor do I.
12 Q. I would like to direct your
13 attention to paragraph 25 of your Declaration.
14 It begins, "As directed by
the
15 bureau, DynCorp International works directly
with
16 the United States military," et cetera,
et cetera.
17 Who within the Bureau would be
the
18 person you're referring to, or persons, who are
19 directing DynCorp?
20 A. It would be me and through me
the
21 office director of the State Department Air Wing,
22 Mr. John McLaughlin, and through him his
37
1 representatives in Columbia, and in a second
chain
2 of command from the embassador through the
3 Narcotics Affairs Section within Columbia.
4 Q. Mr. Baca, does he work in
5 Narcotics --
6 A. He is the director.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MR. RIVERA: Make sure that counsel
9 finishes his question before you answer.
10 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
11 BY MR. COLLINGSWORTH:
12 Q. How frequent are the interactions
in
13 that chain you have just described between DynCorp
14 and the bureau? Is it a daily thing or a weekly
15 thing?
16 A. It is a constant relationship.
It
17 is daily and hour to hour. They live and work
18 together.
19 Q. I understand the limitations on
what
20 you can say here, but what are the general issues
21 that are being worked out on a day-to-day basis
in
22 this relationship? Is it where to spray? Is
it
38
1 what to spray? What are the general issues?
2 A. Logistics.
3 Q. What do you mean by that?
4 A. I mean the support for the aircraft
5 and associated material, gasoline, spray material
6 that are necessary for DynCorp to carry out its
7 function.
8 Q. In the next paragraph, paragraph
26
9 of your Declaration, you describe a process to
10 develop detailed flight plans.
11 Can you tell me how that works?
12 A. The government of Columbia with
the
13 support of the United States determines where
coca
14 cultivation exists with a degree of geographic
15 precision that allows a specific field to be
16 designated as a field to be sprayed.
17 The general geographic area and
then
18 the fields themselves are determined with the
final
19 responsibility for saying that those areas may
be
20 sprayed residing with the government of Columbia.
21 The flight plans are then laid
out
22 for a particular day to cover the fields from
among
39
1 the list of fields which will be sprayed on that
2 day and by that flight. Prior to the take off
of
3 the aircraft, the government of Columbia determines
4 whether or not the weather or wind conditions
are
5 appropriate to being able to deliver the spray
6 effectively to the target selected and only if
the
7 weather and wind are appropriate, it's not raining,
8 the wind is not above a certain velocity. The
9 aircraft are authorized to take off. They then
10 take off and return to base.
11 If an unusual condition results
12 during the course of the flight, then the pilot
has
13 the authority to return to base on his own
14 recognizance. The planes that fly are a
15 combination of planes that are flown by DynCorp
and
16 flown by the Columbian National Police.
17 Q. When you were speaking earlier
about
18 the logistics and the interaction between the
19 bureau and DynCorp, is the government of Columbia
20 involved in those logistical coordination
21 activities as well?
22 A. Only insofar as it may involve
a
40
1 flight clearance to move something from point
A to
2 point B. We are responsible for supplying our
own
3 DynCorp logistical back up.
4 Q. Is a computer program prepared
based
5 on the aerial intelligence that is guiding the
6 spray pattern of the airplane?
7 A. There is a program set which is
used
8 to guide it, yes, that's correct.
9 Q. How is that created?
10 A. It's created in the -- as a result
11 of some multispectral imagery, which is taken
from
12 an aircraft which is flown by us. Not every
field
13 which is sprayed is necessarily registered on
that,
14 but most of the fields which are sprayed are
15 registered on that.
16 Q. Who creates the computer program
in
17 cases where there is one?
18 A. It would be a, I believe,
19 subcontractor of DynCorp.
20 Q. A subcontractor of DynCorp.
21 Do you know the name of the
22 subcontractor?
41
1 A. I don't recall off the top of
my
2 head.
3 Q. Do you know where that computer
4 program is created physically? Is it created
in
5 Columbia, or is it created somewhere in the United
6 States?
7 A. I believe it's in Columbia.
8 Q. Do you know the lag time between
9 gathering the information and actually having
the
10 computer program ready to be operational?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Do your flight plans take account
of
13 the issue of drift?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. How do they do that?
16 A. As I said earlier, they are not
17 allowed to fly if the wind is too great.
18 Q. Is that the only precaution taken?
19 A. Pilots can make a decision in
20 flight.
21 Q. Are you aware of any studies
22 conducted regarding the issue of drift with respect
42
1 to Roundup, the fumigant base that is being used
in
2 Plan Columbia?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Are you aware that there are any
5 studies?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Do you know what kind of spray
was
8 initially being used when Plan Columbia first
9 began?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Do you know what kind of spray
is
12 being used now?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Is it a derivative of Roundup?
15 A. I am not at liberty to say.
16 Q. I'm sorry?
17 A. I am not at liberty to say.
18 Q. Is that a national security secret
19 what the actual spray is?
20 MR. RIVERA: I'm going to object to
the
21 question on the grounds that the identity of
the
22 particular spray would be protected by a privilege
43
1 concerning another national security law
2 enforcement privilege or the privilege for
3 information submitted upon a pledge of
4 confidentiality with the government.
5 MR. HOLLINGSWORTH: Same objection,
also
6 based on the contract.
7 MR. COLLINGSWORTH: We're going to
mark
8 that one because I don't believe that you will
be
9 able to keep us from knowing what is the name
of
10 the spray being used.
11 BY MR. COLLINGSWORTH:
12 Q. Is it a derivative of Roundup?
13 MR. RIVERA: Same objection.
14 MR. HOLLINGSWORTH: Same objection.
15 BY MR. COLLINGSWORTH:
16 Q. What company makes it?
17 MR. RIVERA: Same objection.
18 MR. HOLLINGSWORTH: Same objection.
19 BY MR. COLLINGSWORTH:
20 Q. Has the spray changed?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. When did it change?
44
1 A. I don't know.
2 Q. Why was it changed?
3 A. I'm not sure.
4 MR. COLLINGSWORTH: Let's mark this
as
5 Plaintiffs' Number 5.
6 (Beers Deposition Exhibit No.
5
7 was marked for identification.)
8 BY MR. COLLINGSWORTH:
9 Q. I've handed you Exhibit 5, which
is
10 a transcript of your famous appearance on
11 60 Minutes. I'm wondering if you could take
a
12 moment to review that and tell me if it accurately
13 reflects what you said.
14 MR. RIVERA: Do you want the witness
to
15 read the entirety of the transcript, or are there
16 particular portions that you would like him to
look
17 at?
18 MR. COLLINGSWORTH: It's not that long.
19 He can read the portions that he did actually
say.
20 MR. RIVERA: Read through it and make
21 sure you're comfortable with what you have read.
22 THE WITNESS: (Witness complies.)
45
1 Those are all my words to the best
of my
2 recollection.
3 BY MR. COLLINGSWORTH:
4 Q. Mr. Beers, on page 3 of this
5 document near the top, it's your first appearance,
6 I think, Mr. Rand Beers: "That's correct.
By
7 comparison, table salt and baby shampoo are more
8 toxic or as toxic as glyphosate."
9 MR. RIVERA: I'm sorry, what page are
you
10 on?
11 THE WITNESS: We haven't found the
point
12 you're making.
13 It's on page 2 of mine.
14 MR. RIVERA: Let's make sure we're
on the
15 same page, literally.
16 MR. COLLINGSWORTH: Yes, my pages somehow
17 are different. Sorry.
18 BY MR. COLLINGSWORTH:
19 Q. On page 2 at the top, you are
quoted
20 as saying, "That's correct. By comparison,
table
21 salt and baby shampoo are more toxic or as toxic
as
22 glyphosate."
46
1 A. Glyphosate.
2 Q. Is glyphosate one of the chemicals
3 being sprayed in Columbia?
4 A. Glyphosate is the generic name
of
5 the chemicals that are being sprayed in Columbia.
6 Q. In the next set of questions,
7 Mr. Croft asks you about Roundup. There, you
don't
8 claim any kind of national security privilege,
and
9 instead you answer the questions about the
10 commercial applicability of Roundup. That's
what
11 it appears to be saying.
12 Am I incorrect there?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What are you intending to answer
15 there?
16 A. I'm doing two things at the same
17 time. I am talking about glyphosate, the generic,
18 and I am responding to his question about how
a
19 specific commercial vendor might set up their
own
20 guidelines.
21 Q. But you don't --
22 A. But I am not confirming that Roundup
47
1 is what is being used in Columbia.
2 Q. For purposes of our going to the
3 court and trying to get a court order, the issue
4 you are claiming national security on here is
5 whether or not this glyphosate that you are
6 spraying --
7 MR. GALLAGHER: Glyphosate.
8 MR. COLLINGSWORTH: We all know what
we
9 mean.
10 BY MR. COLLINGSWORTH:
11 Q. -- is in fact Roundup?
12 A. We are not acknowledging the name
of
13 the supplier.
14 Q. That is a national security secret?
15 A. Counsel made the objections.
16 MR. RIVERA: Again, it's information
17 protected by one of the governmental privileges
18 including information submitted to the government
19 on a pledge of confidentiality, as well as the
law
20 enforcement privilege and possibility the national
21 security privilege.
22 BY MR. COLLINGSWORTH:
48
1 Q. But we can say that glyphosate
is
2 one of the chemicals?
3 A. We can certainly talk about
4 glyphosate.
5 Q. Are there any other chemicals
that
6 are added to the mixture that is being used in
Plan
7 Columbia besides glyphosate?
8 A. When one speaks of glyphosate
as the
9 generic active agent that is used to actually
10 affect the plan, there are another set of chemicals
11 which are included, and they are called
12 surfactants. Their purpose is to allow the
13 glyphosate to remain on the leave long enough
to
14 have its active effect on the plant. It is like
15 baby shampoo.
16 Q. Is one of the ingredients that
17 you're describing called Cosmo-Flux?
18 A. That is correct.
19 Q. Is Cosmo-Flux part of the mixture
20 that is being used in Plan Columbia?
21 A. That is correct.
22 Q. Is another one something called
49
1 Poea, P-o-e-a?
2 A. I believe that is the correct
name.
3 Q. What is the difference, as you
sit
4 here, between Cosmo-Flux and Poea?
5 A. They're produced by different
6 manufacturers.
7 Q. But they do the same thing?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Which of them is being used in
Plan
10 Columbia?
11 A. Both.
12 Q. Together?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Why would you need two of them?
15 A. Because in the commercially
16 available mixture which we purchase, the second
of
17 the two surfactants is already an ingredient
of the
18 mixture which we purchase. We add the Cosmo-Flux
19 in addition to that to have an additional
20 surfactant effect.
21 Q. Where is the Cosmo-Flux that you
are
22 adding manufactured?
50
1 A. I don't know.
2 Q. Do you know the name of the company
3 that manufacturers it?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Has the company that is supplying
6 it, the Cosmo-Flux that is being used in Plan
7 Columbia, has the company changed from the
8 beginning of the program until now?
9 A. That supplies the Cosmo-Flux?
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. I don't know.
12 Q. Let me direct your attention to
13 page 3. About halfway down the page it says,
14 Mr. Beers: "There is no question that at
certain
15 dosage levels, glyphosate or the commercial mixture
16 can injure people or kill them. What I'm trying
to
17 say is that the levels that we apply are well
below
18 any of those levels."
19 Did you, in fact, say that?
20 A. I did.
21 Q. What are the dimensions or factors
22 in your mind that would determine whether a certain
51
1 dosage level would kill someone?
2 A. The science, as I understand it,
is
3 that the dosage level would have to be a
4 considerable degree greater than the very small
5 amount of dosage that a single flight would allow
6 to land on an individual.
7 The actual mixture of either
8 glyphosate or surfactant which would fall on
an
9 individual, a naked person of approximately
10 150 pounds standing in a field, which would never
11 happen, would have approximately 12 milligrams
of
12 the total amount of substance. Nine plus
13 milligrams would be glyphosate, the remaining
2
14 plus milligrams would be surfactant.
15 That's hardly anything,
16 approximating what the standard tests have
17 suggested would be the dosage level for glyphosate
18 and its surfactant as manufactured in the United
19 States and testing would be.
20 Q. Is there any process under which
21 someone is testing what is actually being sprayed,
22 the content of it?
52
1 MR. HOLLINGSWORTH: I object to the
form
2 of that. It's unclear to me.
3 THE WITNESS: Nor me.
4 MR. COLLINGSWORTH: I'm sorry, I'll
try
5 again.
6 BY MR. COLLINGSWORTH:
7 Q. You're getting this fumigant and
8 spraying it. Is anyone testing the actual chemical
9 compound that is being sprayed on some sort of
10 random basis to make sure that we're clear on
what
11 it is made of?
12 MR. HOLLINGSWORTH: Same objection.
13 THE WITNESS: I have indicated that
14 products which are manufactured and sold in the
15 United States are tested regularly. That's the
16 test data we have.
17 BY MR. COLLINGSWORTH:
18 Q. Is anyone using commercially in
the
19 United States the exact same chemical formulation
20 with the addition of these two surfactants that
21 you've described in testing it?
22 A. Cosmo-Flux is not sold within
the
53
1 United States.
2 Q. When you say that the people who
are
3 testing it in the United States, that would be
4 irrelevant to whether the chemical as used is
the
5 same, right?
6 MR. RIVERA: Object to the form of
the
7 question.
8 MR. HOLLINGSWORTH: Objection.
9 BY MR. COLLINGSWORTH:
10 Q. Everyone objected to the form
of the
11 question, but the issue is whether you understood
12 the question.
13 MR. RIVERA: If you understand the
14 question, you may answer subject to the objection.
15 THE WITNESS: As to the matter of the
16 irrelevance of the test that has been done in
the
17 United States, I believe it is relevant to the
18 matter at hand.
19 BY MR. COLLINGSWORTH:
20 Q. Why is that?
21 MR. RIVERA: I'm sorry, Counsel. I'm
22 going back and flipping through Mr. Beers'
54
1 Declaration, and it seems that we're going a
bit
2 far afield from what he was supposed to be
3 testifying to today. Obviously, we've been giving
4 some latitude to talk somewhat about the herbicide.
5 But my understanding of his authorization and
the
6 request for his testimony today really concerns
the
7 policy position of the State Department and various
8 aspects of the impact of this litigation on
9 national security and other concerns that are
10 described in the Declaration rather than the
11 science or the health effects, for the most part,
12 of the herbicide.
13 MR. COLLINGSWORTH: I'm going to direct
14 you to paragraphs 22 and 23 of Mr. Beers'
15 Declaration, both of which involve his assertions
16 that there are no grounds to suggest concern
for
17 human health. I believe that my questions are
18 extremely relevant there, and I have just a few
19 more which I would like to complete.
20 BY MR. COLLINGSWORTH:
21 Q. You were beginning to explain
to me
22 the relevance of the testing that is done on
one
55
1 compound to the actual health effects of the
2 compound being used in Columbia which is different.
3 Why did you say that it was
4 relevant?
5 A. When you get to the actual mixture
6 that is being sprayed in Columbia, that is when
it
7 is mixed with the water, which is the largest
8 single content of the mixture, the glyphosate
and
9 the surfactant that comes with the glyphosate
10 represent a certain proportion which is the bulk
of
11 the combination, and 1 percent of the actual
out
12 the nozzle of the spray is Cosmo-Flux.
13 We have, because it is not sold
in
14 the United States, asked EPA to look at the
15 ingredients as provided on a proprietary basis
by
16 the manufacturer. And EPA has, after looking
at
17 the contents, judged the contents of Cosmo-Flux
as
18 safe to be sprayed on food crops in the United
19 States.
20 That, in combination with the
21 testing against the commercially available products
22 which are comparable to what we use, gives us
the
56
1 view that is contained in the statement.
2 Q. Is it true that no one has actually
3 tested on humans the specific compounds together
4 that are being used in Plan Columbia?
5 A. To the best of my knowledge, no
one
6 tests on humans or any of the herbicides or
7 pesticides. They are all done on animals.
8 Q. Are you aware of any scientific
9 tests done on animals to test the effects of
the
10 specific combination of compounds being sprayed
in
11 Plan Columbia?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Are there any plans to do such
a
14 test?
15 A. We are considering the possibility.
16 Q. Who would conduct the test that
you
17 are considering?
18 A. I don't know.
19 Q. Are you working with the EPA on
20 that?
21 A. The EPA would certainly be involved.
22 Q. Are you familiar with any legal
57
1 requirement under the Executive Order 12114 to
test
2 these materials prior to using them in a context
3 that might harm humans?
4 A. I'm not familiar with that executive
5 order and would need to review it before I could
6 answer your question.
7 Q. Are you aware of any discussions
8 that have occurred in your bureau about the need
to
9 conduct an environmental impact study?
10 MR. RIVERA: I'm going to object to
the
11 question to the extent it requires the witness
to
12 reveal any information that would be protected
by
13 the deliberative process or any other applicable
14 privilege.
15 BY MR. COLLINGSWORTH:
16 Q. I believe you can answer the
17 question without giving up the details that counsel
18 has enumerated.
19 MR. RIVERA: If you understand the
20 question.
21 THE WITNESS: I guess you're going
to
22 have to reformulate the question.
58
1 BY MR. COLLINGSWORTH:
2 Q. Have there been any discussions
3 inside your bureau regarding the need to comply
4 with environmental regulations by testing the
5 impact of the compound that you are spraying
in
6 Columbia?
7 MR. RIVERA: Just a question of
8 clarification. The impact on the environment?
9 MR. COLLINGSWORTH: No. Humans or
the
10 environment.
11 MR. RIVERA: I thought I heard
12 environment somewhere in your qualifications.
13 MR. COLLINGSWORTH: Humans are existing
14 in the environment.
15 MR. RIVERA: That's helpful to be clear
16 on the question.
17 THE WITNESS: At this particular point
in
18 time, I am not aware of any specific plans to
do
19 any environmental impact study of this particular
20 spray compound.
21 BY MR. COLLINGSWORTH:
22 Q. You're not familiar with Executive
59
1 Order 12114?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Are you aware of whether there
are
4 any laws in Columbia that would require an
5 environmental impact study to be done before
you
6 could spray something like the fumigant you are
7 using?
8 A. I'm not specifically aware of
any,
9 no.
10 Q. Are you aware of any discussions
11 about whether the program is in compliance with
the
12 law in Columbia on that dimension?
13 A. Yes. It is my understanding that
it
14 is in compliance with the law in Columbia.
15 Q. Does the fumigant that you are
using
16 in Columbia kill food crops like corn, yucca,
et
17 cetera?
18 A. It kills plants.
19 Q. So if a farmer's plants were sprayed
20 by this fumigant, it would kill them, just as
it is
21 killing the cocaine?
22 A. It could.
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